Radical Naivety in the face of climate change: How Youths can make a Difference – A Conversation between Sian Sutherland (A Plastic Planet) and Isabelle Ho (Kaia Initiative)

This month, I had the opportunity to interview Sian Sutherland, co-founder of A Plastic Planet. She shared about her experiences as a key person and advocate for closing the plastic tap, and how youths can make a difference.

IH: Could you tell us a bit about your journey and what inspired you to be one of the co-founders of A Plastic Planet? Was there a moment that made you realize you wanted to do something?

SS: There definitely was. In a nutshell, I'm a serial entrepreneur. 

I believe passionately in the possibility of business being a tool for change and for good. But I'm also a massive plastic sinner, because [the] business [...] I co-founded and ran for 11 years was a skincare business. How many millions of bottles are personally pumped out into the environment without even thinking about what happened to the next, which, 15 years on, sounds shocking to have no real idea of what potentially happened to the next. Nowadays, they would be much more about sustainability and circularity than they were 15 years ago. 10 years ago now, I was asked to advise the Hong Kong Board, [which was] making the first feature length documentary about the problem of plastic in the ocean, so I had this rapid epiphany of meeting the marine biologists and the chemistry scientists to really learn very fast of what we do and still do, unfortunately, every single day, to destroy our oceans. It took eight years to make this feature documentary. We said to the Board of Plastic oceans, “so what's the takeaway for people here? Because they're going to see this film and they're going to feel scared and guilty and angry, and then tomorrow they will go shopping, and they will have zero choice but to fill their basket with everything wrapped up in plastic, because we have no choice. There's no human rights in this area. We are force fed plastic, and now that we know that it's going to make us feel even worse.”

I turned to my co-founder, Frederica Magnuson, and I said to her, "the [3Rs have been going around] for what, 20 years now, and nothing is happening. This doesn't empower people. We've got to do something different. I've got the website domain A Plastic Planet. Why don't we set something up that is totally different, not a charity, not an NGO, but something that is focused on working with governments, pushing through policy to create a level playing field for industry, but largely works on solutions for industry?"

The first campaign we did, we thought, wouldn't it be amazing if people had choice?

Our first campaign was the plastic free aisle campaign, and we met with all the supermarkets, and we got lots of media attention. This supermarket chain of 80 supermarkets in the Netherlands contacted us and said they wanted to go plastic-free, so in February 2018 we opened the world's first plastic free supermarket. And it's a tiny little gesture of this to show that it's possible. And it became a symbol of hope. The day that we open that in this cold little supermarket in West Amsterdam, I did 55 media interviews. Washington Post, Al Jazeera, China TV, BBC, of course, everyone covered it because it was this symbol of hope.

We can push back against something that we all feel really guilty about, and that I think is really indicative of what we do at A Plastic Planet. We don't like to talk about the problem. The problem is boring to me. I really want to talk about is the future. What can our future look like when we wean ourselves off this incredible, but toxic, indestructible material, and what are the materials that we that we're going to invent for the future, and the systems so that we use less natural resource to start with.

So what we do at A Plastic Planet is largely focus on solutions. We focus on policy because we work with [organisations] like the United Nations and the Global Plastics Treaty. And we work with governments, and we work with industry to really wake them up. Because I think the most terrifying word for industry is that for lesser word called risk. And so a lot of what we do is make industry realize that if they continue to use plastic in the way that they do, then they are going to be exposed by risk. And it could be risk because of what we you know, ecocide, the damage to nature, but most likely, it's going to be the impact on human health, because much as we should care about the turtles and the and the beautiful manta rays and the tiny, tiny little beginnings of, you know, the zooplankton and beginnings of the food chain. We do a lot of work with scientists to really bring attention to mass media on the impact of plastic in the many chemicals on human health.

IH: What do you believe are some of the most promising alternatives to plastic? You talk about the solutions and policy, but do you have any specific alternatives that you think have a lot of potential?

SS: I think there are some materials already that we've just forgotten about. That includes things like molded fiber, particularly fiber where we're using agri waste, agricultural waste, because nature produces more cellulose in one day than decades of fossil fuel materials and compounds and plastics. So we've got this abundant material called cellulose, that we can borrow from nature and make things with and keep healthy, so that we give it back to nature in a healthy way. So that would be one material that I think we're just on the cusp of realizing. What else can we do with cellulose? Yes, we can make molded fiber, and you'll see many of the trays and the bottles and the things where we compress cellulose, but what else can we make from this incredible base material that's that is so flexible and strong and adaptable?

I get very excited when you see AI and biotechnology and biomimicry, and how, when these worlds combine, the acceleration in innovation, I think is going to be truly incredible. And then, of course, the other thing that we have to do is use less. Right now, we use 1.7 planets worth of resource every single year. So every year we are taking the material, the natural resource, materials that we're entitled to, that mother nature can replenish every year. We are taking them, we're making stuff with them, and we're selling it, and we're calling it [...] global GDP. So we are taking the materials of your future to make stuff, to make profit today. And we have to stop thinking that way. Instead, we have to be thinking, how can we use less so, what are the systems that we need where, perhaps, instead of thinking that everything could be used once and then maybe go into a recycling screen, definitely go into a bin, perhaps things could go into a returnable spin. Perhaps they could go into something where it's so much nicer that we think... let's say a glass bottle. Why do we have to smash it? Grind it down, melt it, make a new bottle when it's been used once, here's a bottle of water. Why do we smash this and recycle it. When we don't smash this glass and recycle it, you'd think that was mad. No, what do we do instead? We wash it. Why are we doing that with more things? So I think there's two areas for mass innovation, and one is systems change, where we use less resource, and the other is material innovation. And both of these areas I get very excited about, because both of them will be less carbon, less emissions, less toxic, healthy for nature. And of course, if it's healthy for nature, then it's healthy for humans.

IH: That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing a bit about your opinions on alternatives to plastic and also how we can kind of make this change of materials. That's [so] important right now.

SS: I mean, so just to elaborate a little bit further, because obviously you're very close to the oceans, and yes, I'm very excited about the materials that we would be able to harvest from the oceans. I just want us to do it very mindfully, very consciously, because the ocean is an entire ecosystem, and as soon as we as we have on land, we have monocultures. We need to be very careful that we do it mindfully, and we do it in a way that we are simply borrowing from mother nature of the ocean. And then we give it back in a very, very safe way, because that's true circularity, that when we talk about circular materials, there is only one circle that matters in the universe, and that is the circle. No, it's the carbon cycle. It's Mother Nature's circle.

And it's not some new circular economy that we've invented. It's just called nature. So we have to learn to live within the circle of nature and also the boundaries of nature. So I do get excited about seaweed and algae and plant proteins and a lot of these things.

Here's the truth about plastic. It's a disaster. It's a true crisis for so many things, biodiversity loss, the ocean crisis, the soil crisis, the climate crisis, the over consumption crisis, all of these different things set the scene. But then I also want to end on hope and say, and here's the amazing people, and look what they're doing. So tomorrow (at a conference) I will be introducing a company, Rypax, who are doing a huge amount in molded fiber. And they're doing it at scale, and they're doing it so it's beautiful, because things have to look beautiful. We need to put all our energy into the materials and the systems of the future. And also recognize this is not about economies tanking. This is about a brand new way of us living in harmony with nature. Who doesn't want that?

IH: I think that's really amazing to hear. And I think when you said about this circle, the circle of life and nature, instead of like the circular economy that humans are creating for ourselves, I think that's really very interesting to think about. And I love hearing your perspective on this. Thank you.

SS: Complication stops progress, and you have to keep things very, very simple. And I think nature is, of course, unbelievable and very complex, but also very simple. Everything that nature grows becomes the nutrient for the next stage of growth. Done so if we don't recognize that that is the circle, and we don't borrow and keep things super clean. Start well, stay clean, ensure that then they can end well, go back to nature, without toxins, without chemicals, because everything, of course, ends up in our soil and in our oceans and in our air, then we are not working with the circle of nature. And nature is totally binary. What we get back to nature is either a nutrient, a food for the next state of growth, or it is a toxin and a poison. And there is no gray area in the middle, and that, again, it's a very strong position to take of the nature. There are no bad materials. It's a nutrient or it's a poison. Of course, there are materials where they're not perfect, but they're one step on the path, and we encourage those, so long as we are honest that they're not perfect and they're only a step. And we need to keep moving, and we need to move fast, because our ocean, particularly, is in very, very grave danger. And you know this more than most people, we have lost 90% of the big fish of the ocean. We've lost 50% of the phytoplankton. We've lost 80% of the winged insects in the world. Bumblebees have lost their sense of smell. So the bumblebee that even though we think then we're now protecting the bumblebees, because they're so important to everything, for pollination, that and obviously for everything that happens with photosynthesis and carbon sequestration. If the bumblebee doesn't exist, nothing exists. And now, through the chemicals that we use the bumblebee they may be there, but they've lost two thirds of their sense of smell so they can't find the flowers in order to pollinate. And you listen to all of these things and think we are just mad, but scientists believe that before 2050 if we didn't stop, it is job completed, mission accomplished, but us destroying the ocean, and that feels very tangible for me, and I can only imagine for you, Isabelle, [how terrifying that is as a 17-year-old].

Mankind is incredible. When our back is up against the wall, when we are in a corner, we know how to come together and fight. We knew what to do in COVID, and we all stayed at home, and we did extraordinary things. And look at us now, this is totally normal, but what we need to do around the climate crisis is a million times more than that. And I guess the worry is, How bad does it need to get for us to wake up?

What do you think? how do you feel about it all?

IH: I really feel quite scared, because it's such a big issue, there's only so much we can do. And I know decades ago, when the ozone layer was being depleted, people did something about it, but the climate crisis as a whole right now, that's a very huge and very pressing issue, and for so many years, it has gone unnoticed by governments, unnoticed by people and individuals and corporations, and it's hard to reverse that damage and change done to the environment in a short amount of time, and as many people say, the clock is ticking. So it's really very worrying, and I want to get more youths, get more people to want to make a change, so that we can see nature flourish in our lifetime and for generations to come. Because, who knows, maybe even in our lifetime, these resources may be depleted. I really loved hearing about your experiences and kind of understanding more about plastic planet, understanding more about your views on this.

In your opinion, what are some of the biggest environmental issues right now, and what can we do to stop them?

SS: One of the biggest issues that I was not as aware of, but now have spent so much time with the scientists that I'm kindly aware of now, is chemicals. And I think, I think chemical pollution, and yes, of course, the ones that we all know about with fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides that we pump into the soil, and that where, of course, it doesn't just sit in the soil. It goes through the soil, into our waterways, and then out into the ocean.

And you'll have heard about things like PFAs, which are known as the "forever chemicals" that nature doesn't know how to break down. And as we were talking about, nature knows how to break everything down, but nature cannot break down these forever chemicals or PFAs. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, of the toxic chemicals that we are pumping out. We make a new chemical every 1.4 minutes. We're amazingly good at making new chemicals, and we do it in a lab, and we're always wearing hazmat. And then we release it out in some form of a product or a formulation. And then, of course, it ends up in nature, because everything, including ourselves, ends up in nature.

So chemicals, I think, are the one of the biggest concerns. And to be honest, even though it's nothing to do with my direct line of work, everything overlaps. Everything is connected. One of our overuses of chemicals with is antibiotics and antimicrobials, and I think that we are so obsessed with medicating for using antibiotics, but also disinfecting and cleaning using antimicrobials, there is an extraordinary level of resistance that is being built up with some of you know, the superbugs of the world that we will not be able to have the drugs that will help us cope with those.

Up to 40% of the weight of that plastic is chemicals. We use 16,000 chemicals to make plastic. Only 6% of them are globally regulated. 4000 of them have been tested for human health, and nearly all of those 4000 are deemed toxic for human health.

And when I tell you that, and you just think, well, how can this be allowed? It is the most used material on the planet. It's the default for everything. 70% of all our clothing is made out of plastic now. So how can it be that this amazing material has escaped global regulation? And that's when you have to look a little bit further up the chain and think, and where does plastic come from?

And of course, plastic comes from the most powerful lobbying industry in the world, yeah, the fossil fuel industry, which receives $7 trillion of subsidies from everybody on the planet every single year. Imagine what we could all do. Imagine the marine protected zones that you could have for for $7 trillion you know, we could do so much incredible stuff. We could create this thriving bio economy of new materials, but no we use it instead of subsidies to maintain the status quo and ensure that fossil fuels still are the default and their byproduct, plastic is the default for absolutely everything.

So chemicals for me, I think, is the one that we have sleepwalked into, and I don't know why we thought that nature could just handle everything, and that we could continue to use the ocean as an open sewer, that we could continue to use our soil as just a landfill for everything that that we don't want, the billions of tons of waste that we create. We are the only species on the planet that create waste. And every time I say those words, it just strikes me like, who do we think we are?

You've seen the incredible ecosystem of the deep ocean and you understand the careful balance of everything.

Who are we to take something from nature, toxify it, and then just create billions of tons of waste? It's an extraordinary selfish act, and I hope that through the crisis of plastic, which I see as the gateway to so much else, it will be that kind of that wake up for all of us to rethink how we, how we connect with nature, because we are very disconnected from nature, how we, how we reconnect with nature, and therefore reconnect with ourselves, because, of course, we are nature. And I think the the mental health crisis that I witness, particularly in the younger generation, it is no coincidence that the mental health crisis is happening at the same time as the climate crisis, the ocean crisis, the plastic crisis, all of these things, the biodiversity crisis, we have lost connection with mother nature, and the sooner that we recognize that and get back to it, I think would really help.

IH: I think, of course, nowadays, with young people being so disconnected from nature that really impacts people and all of these worrying concerns that loom overhead. They're very heavy, and a lot of youths maybe don't realize it, but they're also worrying about the future, and that might be what's causing some of these issues [that you brought up like mental health]. So I would just like to ask you, what role do you think youths play in helping to save the environment?

SS: Massive, huge power. And I think it's very easy to think, because perhaps you're not in the workplace yet, that you have no power. And of course, there are young activists that everybody refer to, like Greta Thunberg. And you think, no, there is somebody who was not even a very sociable person, who decided that she would do a small protest on her own. And the people that came together, and what she represented was that power of one that people then follow. But what, what she also showed was incredible resilience, and that's that's what the youth are going to need. You know that we can never give up hope, and I will never give up hope, and I will keep doing what I'm doing until my absolute last breath. Because I have two sons. They are 30 and 31, I am the generation that made the mess that they are inheriting, that you are inheriting. I cannot rest until I've tried to do something to remedy that situation.

So you are the generation that represents the future. You are the future.

Of course, you will [find] the solutions, of course, but you are also the reason why my generation should feel so bad, feel so guilty, feel so motivated, that we have caused the problem, and we are handing it to you. And it drives me crazy when people say, "You know, we really need to educate the next generation!" Are you joking?

We don't need education modules around plastic to go into schools of 13 year olds – they get it in a heartbeat. They are not stupid people. You know, they are totally understand where we have gone wrong. It's us that need educating.

It's my generation that needs educating, and we need educating by you.

So it's that way around. So I really push against the thing of just [putting] education programs in schools. It's too late for that.

I'm part of something that you would absolutely love, Isabelle, it's called Sigma Squared, and it's a network of over 1000 young entrepreneurs. Every year they get together, and we host a big summit, and I'll be helping moderate and delivering some workshops.

I look at this young generation of under 26 year olds and the businesses that they are founding and creating. And it is my favorite weekend of the year.

It's like an EpiPen of positivity and can-do, and enthusiasm, and optimism.

For me, because I look at those young people who are all doing incredible things – in climate tech, in health tech, because that's what matters.

The careers of the future are about adaptability and resilience, and how can we cope with the planet that we the environment that is going to get less and less livable? How can we be more resilient against that?

So for the next generation, I feel huge responsibility for.

I look at that sea of faces of Sigma Squared, and I just think, can we just give them all the money, all the governments give them all the money, because they know what to do, and they think in a fresh way. And that's something that is so it's such an advantage that you have.

And I always say I have one superpower. It's the only thing, and that is radical naivety, because I don't know the reasons why not. I don't want to know them. So when I go and I talk to people, even when I was founding a skincare brand, and people would say, Well, this is how you do it at this brand. And I think, Well, I'm not in that brand, so I'm going to do it a different way.

And it's exactly the same through all of my career – just thinking in a very different way of that position of radical naivety and not knowing the reasons why not?

When we tell people we have to wean ourselves from the plastic bottle and there are solutions, and people tell me all the reasons why they can't, I'm inside going, you know, don't tell me. I don't want to know, because that's why you haven't changed, and that's why we are in the mess that we're in because you know too much, and it's better not to know.

So never, ever think as a younger person, never think my naivety is nothing but a massive advantage, because the old systems have failed us. So people who are schooled and the old systems of how we do things, how we make things, how we run things, how we finance things, throw it all out the window.

Look where it's got us, and we need an absolute new way of living.

One of my favorite people is Kate Raworth, an economist [who] created something the donut economic model. You cannot have infinite growth on a planet with finite resources, so you have to live within the constraints of the donut, because this is the ring of the planet and all our natural resource but it's also the societal constraints of how how much can we consume, how much stuff can we own, all of these things, we have to live within the constraints of the donut.

And I can guarantee you, if we follow that economic model, we would not only be richer in a different way, but we would be happier, because we have to recognize that the amount of stuff that we buy, ding, ding, ding, buy now, buy now, get it in 12 minutes. Little dopamine hit. Feel good about something. Oh, within a day, I'm already bored of it. What's the next thing that's going to make me happy? We are filling a big hole inside us with stuff. Yeah, and that hyper-consumption, this overconsumption, is a massive problem. Social media is built on overconsumption. So much about the problems of the world making you feel inadequate because you don't own something, so you buy it, and then you realize, Oh, that wasn't the thing that will fulfill me, because we will never have enough of something we don't actually need. And for me, you go back to plastic and think over consumption fast fashion, for example, couldn't exist without plastic. So that's why I see it as such an amazing gateway.

IH: That is really amazing. I think, having youths be passionate about things and your mindset of radical naivety is really amazing, and of course, now I see [our age and naivety] as an advantage. Thank you so much for sharing your views with me.

SS: Yeah, yeah, because you intrinsically know what's right. You know what I mean? Like you go down to the depth of the ocean, and you see the incredible world down there, and then you see what we do. It's black and white. There is no gray area there where we are living in the wrong way.

IH: Like you said earlier, nature is complex, but it's also simple. And I think that is why, despite everyone talking about the problem and talking about solutions, nothing's being done. Because all these governments, corporations, people and adults, they complicate things, they worry about all the little details. And I think your mindset of not caring about these why-nots and these cons to [making a change], I think that's absolutely amazing, and it's really like a can-do mindset.

IH: Yeah, that is very worrying to think about as well. And it is very complicated, getting legislation, getting everything to work. It's such a complicated process, and takes so much time. I recently read about, I think the, I think some of the restrictions, because one of, I think in France, in French Polynesia area, they had a whale that was hit, and then they tried to get more regulations on boat speeds. And I think they managed to get the petition to enough signers. But it's really quite worrying that the boat speeds were that high and you had to have an animal killed in order for people to realize this. And I think that really we should, like collectively decide this should happen before this happens, because that's the same thing I've been happening on a global scale, on a bigger scale to the environment, something has to happen to us before we realize it, and by then it's too late, because the damage has been done and creatures have been killed.

IH: What's worse is people don't care about the creatures that live there, as if they aren't living too because they're not charismatic creatures like whale sharks or manta rays or dolphins. They're like, Oh, this blobfish. I don't care about it or don’t want to protect it.

SS: And why are, why is it our definition of beauty? So these are creatures that have to live, you know, in very, you know, miles down in and so of course they're going to look a bit weird and a bit bug eyed and because they're living in the dark, but yeah, I agree with you. And actually, so many of the creatures that you see down there, they're not ugly. They are really beautiful.

IH: I agree. Okay, I have another question for you. If you could describe your beliefs in three words, what would they be?

SS: Wish I thought about this before. What would they be?

I live through one very strong belief, which is belief precedes reality. 

I think you have to hold a vision of a very a brighter, more optimistic future, and you can't focus on the gloom and gloom, because that just drags you down a hole. You have to really hold this bright light up there and say, “that's where we're going, and it's going to be amazing”, because belief precedes actuality. I am a very optimistic person, and entrepreneurs have to be optimistic, otherwise you just wouldn't get out of bed in the mornings because it's such a roller coaster that you live. So I think you know, maintaining that level of optimism [is important]. I love to work as a team. I'm not a solo person. I love being surrounded by people and leading a team and sharing the highs and the lows, but, you know, sharing all of it with people, yeah. 

My final thought, and this is all off the cuff, something my late mother said to me, “the only thing that matters is love”. And the older you get, and the more trials and tribulations you go through, and the more desperate times that we have as a human race and as individuals, I am reminded time and time again, the only thing that matters is love. And when you are born, you are born with two natural states, and one is love and the other is fear. And I think that we need to choose love, and it's very easy with the climate crisis and everything and the political unrest for us to choose fear. And we are ruled through fear [...] in so many areas. And what we need is to rule ourselves. The only thing you have power over is is this, then we need to rule ourselves through love.

-Isabelle Ho, 17